troop trees

[ares007]

Here is the thread to talk about troop trees.

I personally think that the way we go about it should be the following:
determine a special unit for each faction (we can gradually decide on "factions" as we go along). Some examples would be a Nord Huscarl, a Khergit Horse Archer, and a Swadian Knight.

Once we've decided on a special troop for the faction, then we can decide how strong the faction will be in other areas.

After that, we will determine the various other "top-tier" troops for the "factions".

Once this is decided, then we need to decide what the most basic troop for a faction would be.

Lastly, we determine the upgrade path.

For example, it always seemed like otters specialized in javelins. Maybe the special troop for otters would be a veteran warrior with high throwing skill and a large bag of high quality javelins (note, if this mod winds up being for warband, we can make the javelin double as an effective melee weapon)

I think you get my drift

Also note:
-we can work on any number of factions at a time. The above was just a guide on how our discussion should flow.
-by "faction" I generally mean race. There will probably be a few different political factions in the game that have the same troop tree.
-we do not need to follow Native's way of assigning a specific upgrade tree for each political faction. For example, some woodlander faction might be able to recruit otter recruits and squirrel recruits which would each have their own troop tree. A vermin faction might be able to recruit rats, weasels, and foxes which would all have their own troop trees.
-for the above reason, I don't think each race should have a very complicated troop tree.

[raqill]

->Hare spear->Hare shield/short spear->Hare halberdier /w ranged assist
Hare recruit->Hare runner->
->Hare Sword->Hare Sword and Shield->Hare 2 hander /w ranged assist
->Hare sword and shield advanced.
->Hare Skirmisher->Hare archer->Hare Ranger

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Here is the troop tree that ash thought up of... Make comments about it!

[ares007]

As far as 2-handers, I can only picture hares using a bastard sword or maybe a "Two-handed Sword".

Can we try discussing along the lines that I presented? What should be the "special" unit for hares?

Also, I don't think that hares should be the most "martially proficient" or the "greatest warriors". I know that in the book, pretty much any goodbeast can take on a number of any vermin, but we need balance in the mod. The hares will specialize in mobility and discipline/tactics.

I also must ask, were there actually hares using pikes and halberds in the books? It was mostly swords right? (with the addition of course of missile weapons)

perhaps the missile line of troops for the hares will be the following (with better names of course)
rock-throwing(basically slingers) --> javelin-throwing --> archers


I also want to talk about some of the vermin.

What kind of specialty can we have for rats? (maybe high leadership-oriented and intelligence skills? Perhaps a special rat unit could be

What about foxes? (obviously high intelligence. Maybe agility also? Should their special unit be an archer?)

What about weasels? (I think weasels should have high martial proficiency. What else?)

Cats?

[raqill]

In High Rhulian it talks about a hare who's name I can remember who used a poleaxe in a battle, and he was one of the main characters. However there main one was a sword as you said. I think the hares special unit should be a Long Patrol hare or if you plan on using them as lords, Regimental Hares. Rats could have a special Scourge Rat... And Foxes could maybe have a Healer unit, since in Redwall Sela was a healer. Maybe a Fox Fortune Teller could be a companion for you. No idea for stoats and weasels.

[ash12181987]

Only a few rats to my memory were rather intelligent... the foxes though Were of extraordinary intelligence.

Stoats I'd say need something thats like a strength tank. I remember Rats being quicker, and stoats being stronger.

so:
Rats: Agent like unit, something like an assassin (Or would that be better for ferrets?)
Stoats: Berserker unit with a big mace?

As for defense of my Hare line: my point of "Martial Focus" was more because they are one of the good, standing armies in the redwall series. Guisom and Skippers otters are more tribes; Long Patrol, straight standing army of Salamandastron. Halberdier I vaguely remember some pikes being used by the long patrol with some frequency

I checked the redwall Wiki: Seems their favored weapons if you check each hare are as follows: Lances, pikes, rapiers, sabers, claymores, fists, bows, slings. The bolded ones are major ones. Bolded and itallisized are very big. SO: Lances, sabers, Fists, Rapiers, slings, and I forgot Javelins, but them too. Also, Sabers can go a two hand variety and a one hand variety, it doesn't specify, that would be what I could bring up for defense of two handers, while it's not much. Pikes, while not as important it seems, could be used as a big unit maybe?

The fur and foot fighters seem to be something that could be used for a special unit. Maybe a ranger-esque unit with a lance and a bow? Skill wise: I think you are right: leader ship focus, but the issue is that leadership focus is... well useless to most units. Training focus though. also, what about tracking skills and what not?

One other thing about hares, Boxing is really big to them, where as IG now it's kinda... Not that good. What about putting some focus on letting people do hand to hand?

Also, how much complexity should there be in troop trees? In some mods you have perhaps like 4 units, where as in others you can have upwards of 12. Greater volumes of available troops would allow for more powerful troops appearing less often, but being well worth it, while fewer troops would allow for greater volumes of less well trained troops, but the ultimates can be reached relatively quickly.

[tanit]

Hares: Some thoughts, lots of unique feeling here, will do rats tomorrow

Leveret: March Hare or Salamandastron Hare
March Hare: Mountain Hare
Salamandastron Hare: Galloper or Boarder Patrol
Galloper: Runner or Sleeper
Boarder Patrol: Archer Hare or Long Patrol
Long Patrol: Long Patrol Lancer or Hare Healer
Long Patrol Lancer: Hare Officer

Leveret: Sling and dagger
March Hare: Big and strong, fists
Mountain Hare: Claymore
Salamandastron Hare: Rapier
Galloper: Very fast, dagger, sling
Runner: Better Galloper, sabre and sling
Sleeper: Better Galloper, less speed, more power, sabre and javelin
Boarder Patrol: Pike/spear and fists
Archer Hare: bow, dagger or sabre
Long Patrol: Rapier or sabre, occasional sling or javelin
Hare Healer: Dagger and sling, high healing skills
Long Patrol Lancer: Like the Long Patrol but with lance
Hare Officer: rapier and javelins


The biggest problem with making a troop tree for any group is that Brian Jacques basically has different weapons for every character in the books. There is very little sense of organization based on weapon type, more often it is based on rank, race or social standing.

[tanit]

Ok, so its not exactly tomorrow, but school is rough, rats are difficult, and no one seems to use this forum.

Rats are the most interesting group in Brian Jacques' universe of Redwall. This is because although they are often in positions of authority, they form the majority of the troops among vermin armies and can even be occasionally good, they have no special skill or group identity.

They also use almost every weapon known to man in the medieval ages. Spears, javelins, slings, bows, swords, cutlasses, pikes, etc...

There are a few types of rat however which can be identified.

Sea Rats: The rats who rule the seas, most likely to be leaders, ever, most likely to use bows, most vicious, most feared, best organized.

Tribal Rats: feral rats, fewer of them than other feral species, painted. In specific 'The Painted Ones' who are seen in many books. Use blowpipes, blunt branches and short spears.

Common Rats: The soldiers, use spears mostly, also use slings. Come in large numbers, usually never amount to positions of authority. Can produce archer rats as well, of a sneakier, more pathfinder kind.

Thoughts:

Rat Recruit (Actually applicable here): Common Rat or Tribal Rat
Common Rat: Water Rat or Regular Rat
Tribal Rat: Painted one
Water Rat: Bilge Rat or Sea Rat
Regular Rat: Rat Scout or Rat Soldier
Sea Rat: Corsair Rat or Corsair Skirmisher
Corsair Skirmisher: Corsair Archer
Corsair Rat: Trident Rat
Rat Scout: Rat Archer or Rat Slinger
Rat Soldier: Spear Rat

Rat Recruit: Dagger
Common Rat: short spear
Tribal Rat: Blunt stick
Painted One: Blowpipe and short spear
Water Rat: short Spear
Bilge Rat: pike
Sea Rat: cutlass or axe or short spear
Corsair Rat: cutlass, optional shield
Trident Rat: two-handed trident
Corsair Skirmisher: javelins and cutlass
Corsair Archer: bow and cutlass
Rat Scout: short sword or spear, sometimes javelins
Rat Archer: bow and sword or spear
Rat Slinger: sling and sword or spear
Rat Soldier: sword, sometimes shield
Spear Rat: spear and sometimes shield

[ares007]

Looks interesting. I like the idea of a big troop tree. It's more interesting. We'll try to implement it and then adjust as we test it. Of course, that will need to wait till warband comes out.